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Italian hospitality problem - advice needed

braindoc

100+ Posts
We have a bit of an unusual situation.

About 8 years ago in Bologna at all’osteria Bottega we started speaking to a group of locals. We’ve stayed in touch with one of them, a recently retired surgeon/professor from the University. At subsequent visits, we’ve gotten together with him. Without fail, no matter what I’ve tried he always picks up the tab. His explanation: when you are visiting my country, you are the guests.

We will be in October for 4 nights in October. My wife and I hope to return to Hosteria Giusti in Modena. (We are waiting to hear about reservations.) I sent a message to our friend inviting him to be our guest for pranzo there. His response once again: grazie per l’invito ma in Italia gli invitati siete voi (thanks for the invitation but in Italy you are the guests). He went on to say we will definitely be getting together.

Does anyone have some insight into this? Is this typical? Certainly, we would host him if he ever visits here but we know that he is not as likely to come to the USA as often as we visit Italy. Any suggestions of how to handle this? Accept it and move on?? Obviously we do not want to make a “brutta figura.”

Thanks.
 
I would love to hear some advice on a situation like this. We have also had similar situations. One in particular was a chef/restaurant owner in Florence who my husband first met in 1989 at his then newly opened restaurant. We used to visit for 2+ weeks a year, sometimes doing 4 day weekend trips (pre 9-11 when tickets were dirt cheap off season), sometimes 2 weeks at a time. We would eat dinner there every day and over time lunch as well. We started to become uncomfortable with all the extras we would receive or the flat rate we would pay no matter what we ordered. After discussing with some of his friends who we came to know well we gave an ultimatum that we needed to pay a fair price or not eat there at all. We reached a détente where he agreed to charge us at a minimum his costs. Still, after he retired and he and his wife became unable to drive (they live outside the city and both have health issues) we would rent a car to visit them and they finally started suggesting we go out to eat rather than eating at their house. I know they are struggling financially from their Italian friends. I have yet to be able to pay despite getting him to agree that we would pay eating out before we visit them. We are the visitors/guests so we should not pay is the mentality. We paid to rent a car so he should pay for lunch. I want to visit but it makes me guilty because I know he cannot afford the meals out he insists on. I'd love some advice on how to handle the sometimes overwhelming generosity of Italians who become friends and see you as their guests in their country.
 
I've encountered this too, and my advice is to respect this gesture. Of course, after trying politely and seriously to offer to pay, or share payment, which you have done.

My solution has been to bring a gift from home, or from an Italian business bought during the visit - and this is always appreciated (although there is a parallel effort on the side of the host to not accept it, of course...).
If there is a chance that the host himself might perhaps be offended by the reciprocal gesture of presenting a gift, you can always bring/buy something for the wife/partner or children.

I even did this for an AirBnB host that I felt had done "above the call of duty" with his hospitality : while sitting with him and his wife, I sort of got an inkling what might be a nice gift for his wife, and purchased something for her which I presented to them upon departing the apt., on the way out. They were pleasantly surprised and enjoyed the gesture.
Similarly, I always bring a gift to all the agriturismo owners that we stay at. They are always so kind to us, and they appreciate receiving something that is not so readily seen where they live - and of course are pleased to have their hospitality recognized.
Being able to give and receive is one of life's blessings.
 
We have Italian friends that we've been dining with on roughly a weekly basis for about 20 years during our multi-month visits. They own a small jewelry store and appear to be very comfortable financially, but who really knows? It is a constant fight to take turns in paying the dinner bill (our friend, Stefano, pays about 80% of the time). My wife (who does all the money stuff once we are in Italy -- I do everything to get us there and lodged -- am sure there's a basic flaw in this approach, but she's happy with it)....anyhow, my wife started going to the cashier before the dinner was over to provide a credit card to cover the meal. This did not make our friend happy and he then started arranging payment with the staff as soon as we hit the door so that she could no longer do this. In the US, we are used to a friendly tussle over who gets to pay a bill -- I do not have any sense that this is a "tussle" -- it is an absolute expectation on his part that he will pay for us. Early on, my wife bought a lot of gold from him during our visits, but we've pretty much loaded up everyone in our family and circle of friends who wanted gold, so it has been quite a while since we have made purchases, thus the idea of any quid pro quo should have long gone away.
 
My wife (who does all the money stuff once we are in Italy -- I do everything to get us there and lodged -- am sure there's a basic flaw in this approach, but she's happy with it)
I do all the trip planning and Steve looks after the handling of money and paying when we travel. He gives me some cash just in case but I usually still have it at the end of the trip. I am happy with it!
 
We've run into this situation before and have handled it two ways: #1, we've gotten to the restaurant early and prepaid, or left specific instructions that WE are going to pay, or #2, one of us gets up to go to the toilet and heads straight to the cash register to pay before anyone notices.
 
I am reassured to see that our situation is hardly unique. We are considering our options.

BTW Alpinista, my wife reassures me that there is no such thing as too much gold or jewelry.
 
I've been dining with Italian friends near Orvieto for over 20 years though in their home. My efforts to bring them to a restaurant so I could reciprocate have not worked. When I am in their area, they expect me to join them for lunch or dinner, sometimes both which I love to do. But I bring a plant for Gianna's garden or a bottle of wine or a liqueur, or some specialty that I've found in Italy, on occasion flowers, or something from the US that I think they would enjoy. Nothing overwhelming but they always enjoy the thought. In Italian, un pensiero.
 
Certainly, we would host him if he ever visits here but we know that he is not as likely to come to the USA as often as we visit Italy. Any suggestions of how to handle this? Accept it and move on?? Obviously we do not want to make a “brutta figura.”

Thanks.
Right there you have answered your own question. If he visited you, there would be no way he would be allowed to pay. Genuinely thank him for his generosity and hospitality and leave it at that.
If you think there is some appropriate gift from America that he could not easily find in Italy, then present him with that. Alternatively, when you are there purchase a special wine or balsamic vinegar to present to him.

You know thinking about this subject reminds me of a story my mother once told me. Her mother came from Giovinazzo. She told me a saying in Italian which unfortunately I can no longer remember and it loses something in translation, but basically it went something like this -

When someone comes to your house, you don't ask them if they want something to eat, just feed them, they're alive of course they want food, only the dead don't eat.

So your friend is just feeding you in the best Italian tradition, you're alive aren't you! :)
 
Believe it or not, 45 years ago I looked for a place to live in Giovinazzo when I was preparing to attend the University in Bari. Eventually landed south of Bari, in Torre a Mare.
 
We once brought gifts to a little family run Italian winery, as a way of thanking them for their hospitality our previous visit, but ended up leaving with more gifts from them. Italian hospitality is a very precious thing.

One thing you might choose to do, is to keep alive an old Italian tradition on the trains, explained so eloquently by Fred Plotkin in his Italy for the gourmet traveller book(s). In the old days family members would work a long way from home, so would be packed off with a hamper of food for them (and with extra as there would always be a traveller less fortunate). Of course they all did the same, so veritable feasts would be passed around the train. So maybe on your next journey, take some lovely deli / alimentari / gastronomia 'finger food', and a bit more than you need. Who knows, you might be able to tempt fellow travellers, making friends, but also reigniting a great tradition that is dying away.
 
BTW Alpinista, my wife reassures me that there is no such thing as too much gold or jewelry.
That would be an exact quote from my wife when I was dating her -- should have paid attention ;-) She has pretty much devoted her life to proving that maxim.
 
Some follow-up regarding the hospitality issue -

We were in touch with our buddy regarding our time in Bologna. About a week before the trip, I pinned him down about joining us for lunch in Modena at Hosteria Giusti (along with friend of his). He agreed. I fully expected an issue when the bill came but I reached out to the staff ahead of time and was able to pay the bill. They were both very thankful and I think they were really impressed with the food. No problem.

The next day, he picked us up and we spent the day with him and a life-long friend of his in Mantova. Truly a lovely city! Oh, he did treat us for lunch. Back to normal!
 
I don't have anything much to add, but share my experiences with this.

For many years, when we'd visit my family near Parma, my cousins, of all generations, would always treat us at their homes or in restaurants. It was difficult to reciprocate, given their insistence on total hospitality. Truly kind and sincere giving.... part of their culture. I did bring gifts from home that would either be unique for them, or something I knew they would like, but it seemed to pale in comparison. When they came here, which was rare, I reciprocated. But, our visits to Italy were more numerous as they tended to travel in winter to Asia or Africa.

I still bring things to them, but over the years we have been able to "alternate" when paying the bill. Times have changed somewhat too, I think, especially with younger folk. My elderly family members have now passed and my same-age and younger cousins are more amenable to this arrangement. There's a bit of tussle, but they concede. They still provide wonderful experiences, knowing what we like to do i.e. fiestas, antiquities, castles and homemade meals. I'm sure I'll never be able to give near what I've received. So, I thank them and know how lucky I am.
 
Looks like we're all in a need of a scoresheet, or maybe there's an app for this : "Who Paid When". ;)

But seriously, I think that all these gestures have to be respected, and one should just flow with them.
I am reminded of another instance when we became friends with the owner of an agriturismo. She was just starting off with the business, and this was our second stay. I had written very nice things about the accommodation, and the owner said that this had really helped. She wanted to give us a big discount, both because of the friendship and the help, but this time I had to refuse quite strictly. I told her that at this rate we will not feel good coming back again because we will feel that we will be exploiting her goodwill. In the end she agreed with us - her prices were low anyway, and I convinced her that we had received much more than what we had paid for.
 
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It is very common here. My family members in the next town over (here in Basilicata) will never let us pay, and when we try he just barely shakes his head at the owner and they won't take our money. We arrived in town early once to meet up with them so went to the cafe for a coffee until the meeting time. The barista wouldn't take our money! No, he said, Michele won't allow it. I pointed out he wasn't there and didn't need to know but no way, he wouldn't let us pay!

I FINALLY managed to pay for a lunch in September that we invited them to, with visiting family members, but had to prearrange it with the restaurant owner and then let Michele pay for the coffees and after-dinner liqueurs to mollify him. This is after 11 years of living here, we finally got to pay for a meal.

Other dear friends owned a restaurant in Rome and always gave us really low prices, invited us to their home and made us part of their family. They now let us cook for them (sometimes) or pay if we go out (when we point out that we invited them), but it took a long time to achieve that.
 
We stayed in lovely apartment in an agriturismo near Modena several years ago. The breakfasts were amazing. The owner went out of her way to show us around the area, including giving us a tour of a friend's parmesan cheese factory. She even gave us her homemade tomato sauce to use when we cooked our dinner. The reservation was secured with a credit card and when it came time to pay the bill, she was going to charge the CC. Thinking it would benefit her, I asked if it would be okay to pay most of the bill in cash and not to worry about a receipt. She smiled and said, "Ah, so you know how Italy works."
 
I visited the Florentine chef in October that I had mentioned. Unfortunately his health has degraded more since I last visited in the fall of 2019. We did go out to lunch and I reminded him that he promised that we could pay the next visit. He laughed and said he hoped that I would say that as he admitted that money is an issue for them. Not what I would have like to have happen to finally be able to pay but I'm glad that we were able to enjoy a nice meal with them without feeling guilty.
 

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